Ellen wrote:

You may also want to log on to www.growup.com

Phil wrote:

Hello Ellen,

Thanks for the clever advice. I wish I could tell the tens of thousands of folks killed in Iraq to "get a life" but I fear it is too late for them.

As for "growing up", analyzing constitutional law and international treaties, and Presidential misconduct is not exactly child's play.

Here is my advice to you. Please continue to engage others in thoughtful dialog. By discussing important issues with those who disagree we can all move together towards a better solution for America.

If you would like to share the substance of your opinions then I am all ears.

Peace,
Phil

Ellen wrote:

Yes Phil, it is too late for them as it is too late for the people in the World Trade Center. Human beings have always been engaged in conflict between person to person, village to village and nation to nation. It is the intrinsic nature of man to be aggressive, possessive and, to use a term that I'm somewhat certain that you will find offensive, warrior like. All the benevolent thoughts and wishes will not alter man's basic nature. All we can hope for while we are on this earth is that we are on the winning side of the conflict at hand.

Perhaps on another plane or in another realm we can reach the Nirvana that you seem to think is possible by simply voting into office people who think as you do. On this earth, Phil, there are too many variables, variables that will never be overcome by wishing it so. Meanwhile, people who refuse to accept themselves for what they actually are, that being Man/Woman and a naturally territorial, aggressive and potentially deadly predator, make the rest of us vulnerable to those that are not hindered by political "correctness", "why can't we all just get along" obstructionism.

Face it Phil, if you are a human being you are from a race of warriors.If you feel that it is possible for you to live in peace with your fellow man try convincing your fellow man to live in peace with you. I'm afraid that is an obstacle that you will never overcome.Not with all the dialogue that you care to engage in from now until the end of your days on this earth.

With the acceptance of the true nature of who I am and what I was born to be, I am and remain,
Very truly yours,
Ellen

Phil wrote:

Hello Ellen,

Thank you so much for your reply. It is nice to hear a carefully expressed and intelligent opinion from someone that I disagree with.

>> It is the intrinsic nature of man to be aggressive

I agree that aggression is a fundamental part of our nature. I think everyone feels occasional rage. I know I do. But luckily we are able to suppress those urges and act civilized most of the time.

>> All the benevolent thoughts and wishes will not alter man's basic nature.

I agree again. We can hope for peace but we must be prepared to defend ourselves when attacked. That is why I favor a strong military and supported military action against Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan. They attacked us and we had every right to defend ourselves.

You made several incorrect assumptions about what I think, which I shall ignore. Let me just state my opinion clearly, as you have done.

Humans are often aggressive. But we are also capable of wisdom and compassion. That is what has allowed us to rise from the level of anarchy and animal brutality to form great civilizations. The majority of us are able to live life without being shot on a daily basis. That is largely because we have been able to create a system of law and order. This system works well to create a mostly peaceful society. In order for this system to work, the forces of law and order must be able to win a fight with those who break the law. So I am glad that police have weapons, are highly trained and have backup when needed.

It is a terrible thing, however, when the police abuse their power because their victims have no one to turn to. Luckily this is extremely rare.

I also feel that this system of law and order should work to the highest levels of human organization. We need not just city police, but county sheriffs, state police, federal police and Interpol. It is also important that nations abide by laws and that they can trust each other. For this reason we have international treaties and those treaties are legally binding. Our US Constitution states that international treaties are part of the "Supreme Law of the Land". When we were attacked by Al Qaeda, we were legally justified to take action to defend ourselves.

But unfortunately, our invasion of Iraq did not have the same legal standing. Iraq had not threatened us nor attacked us. We had no real evidence that they were a threat but we claimed Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We were so intent on invading that we exaggerated that threat and gave Congress and the UN faulty information that had already been proven false. Then on the basis if this misinformation we invaded a sovereign country over the objections of the United Nations and the International Community. This did terrible damage to the reputation of the United States and seriously undermined the system of international law and order. It also resulted in the deaths of many tens of thousands of civilians, more than were killed on 9/11.

I am not naive enough to think that by eating granola and meditating that we can protect America from a foreign aggressor. We need a strong military and intelligence community. But we must use those forces wisely and in a legal manner and only when necessary. To do otherwise means that we are no longer a righteous protector of civilization but a dangerous beast that threatens the peace of other nations. I want to be on the winning side, but I also want to be on the right side. Violating treaties and killing civilians in illegal and unjustified wars is not right. I hope that our great country can do better.

Thank you for listening.

Peace,
Phil

Ellen wrote:

A neighbor had a sign on his front lawn that said "impeachbush,com". Since my neighbor is a rich, conspicuous consumer type, I wondered where he would find a sign like that and what organization he would be backing considering his obvious display of what many consider a "Republican" type of personal wealth. This led me to something that you wrote, hence the "get a life".

If you were protesting Carter then I assume you are about my age! I will also assume that if you haven't realized that the intrinsic aggressive, territorial nature of man assures that they will never live in peace you never will. You sound like a nice person who sincerely thinks that if you try hard enough you can change the world. You can't.

I would like to say one more thing. Examine your heart. I noticed that you picked apart the Rabbi's letter and denied the points he made one by one. Although the points that he made were not always "politically correct", and some were generalizations of basically held ideas, if you think carefully about what he is saying and how, deep in your heart you may really feel about the people that don't agree with you, isn't he right?

Forgive my awkwardly written e-mail, I'm running to catch a plane.

All my best wishes for you,

Ellen

Phil wrote:

>> You sound like a nice person who sincerely thinks that if you
>> try hard enough you can change the world. You can't.

I agree that man has an intrinsic aggressive nature. There is ample evidence of that. But there is also evidence that man is capable of compassion and friendship. I know that I cannot fix the world. But this is not an all or nothing decision. I can try to promote peace and in my small corner of the world I may have a positive effect. I would rather work toward peace than encourage war. It is a question of which direction I walk, not how far I will get.

I cannot be 100% healthy. But should I give up and eat twinkies and sit around on the couch all day? No, I try to eat nutritious foods and exercise when I can. As a result, I am a little bit healthier than if I did the opposite.

>> about what he is saying and how, deep in your heart you may really feel
>> about the people that don't agree with you, isn't he right?

OK, this is what I honestly feel about conservative or right-wing folks. I think they value the same things that I do: freedom, equality, democracy, security, health, justice. I just think conservatives and liberals have different ideas about how to achieve those goals. It's like two doctors, a surgeon and an internist, arguing about how to save a patient. The surgeon want to operate and the internist wants to try a new drug. But both are trying their best to cure the patient. This is why I object to folks like the Rabbi accusing Liberals of want to weaken America or to place their own agenda over the interests of America. I would not say that about Conservatives and I hope Conservatives will recognize that Liberals love America too.

If I may generalize, here are what I perceive as the differences between the liberal and conservative approach:

Liberals value personal freedom and privacy higher than conformance to a moral code. Conservatives are the opposite. This is why Liberals generally favor gay and abortion rights and Conservatives often do not.

Conservatives often feel that war is a solution to problems in foreign relations. Liberals feel that war is the problem. Both want peace and a strong America. The difference is in how we achieve that goal.

Liberals value health, pristine nature and long term economic growth over unregulated business and short term profits. That is why Liberals want to preserve the environmental safeguards put in place by the EPA, while Bush is slowly dismantling the EPA and opening up the land for logging, drilling and mining. Bush's practices may generate quick profits but when the forests are gone, and the water is polluted, the oil is gone and people are too sick to work then the economy will go downhill even more.

My hope is that Liberals and Conservatives, with common goals, can work together to find new solutions to the many problems we face. Bush unfortunately is shutting out opposing viewpoints and taking a very one-sided approach to problem solving.

We can talk to each other. Why can't Bush work with the Democrats?

Best wishes from your liberal left-wingnut friend,
Phil